David Starr: 'I can't work for WWE or ROH… but it's a calculated risk'

David Starr has set tongues wagging like few other other professional wrestlers in 2019.

The Philadelphia born, former amateur grappler has long been praised for his mat-based technical skills.

But the outspoken 28-year-old has also become renowned for his controversial promos and scathing microphone work… including taking shots at WWE.

This Thursday, he heads to TNT Extreme Wrestling in Liverpool, to challenge Mark Haskins for TNT’s top title in a ladder match.

Ahead of the showdown at Cold Day in Hell 2019, ‘The Product’ spoke exclusively with Mirror Sport’s Neil Docking.

In a wide-ranging and revealing interview, he addressed:

• Why TNT is British wrestling’s “best kept secret”
• Is the UK scene’s ‘boom’ period over and how NXT UK has affected it
• Whether he regrets his incendiary Sinclair Broadcasting promo
• Burning bridges with WWE and Ring of Honor
• Why he would go on strike to fight for his fellow wrestlers
• How AEW can compete with WWE and change the business

TNT Extreme Wrestling has been billed as British wrestling’s “best kept secret”. That seems to be slowly changing, as more fans are becoming aware of the promotion and just how good its shows are. What were your first impressions of TNT?

Well they booked me, Jay [Apter] contacted me, and when I got there it was great. I was real happy with everything. It was a fun show, they took care of us in the back, there was some fruit and water and stuff for everyone… I got paid properly, so everything was right about it! The fans were great, they bought merch and stuff, they were really into the show, so everything was great about TNT.

For as big of a city as Liverpool is, it didn’t really have a prominent wrestling company. And I think that is a void that has been filled by a place like TNT, which has some great talent. It has some great established talent and great new upcoming talent, that you won’t see anywhere else, say in the Midlands or London, or across the country in general. They have guys fly in from all over the world to put on this great show and they have guys who are just making their name in the business.

They have everything there. They’re not afraid to do hardcore matches, like really hardcore, modern death matches, but they’re also not afraid to give fans a good little technical wrestling match either, so they hit the entire spectrum. It’s a great environment.

You have an amateur wrestling background and like you say, TNT gives fans a breadth of styles. On your debut in May 2018 you faced Jordan Devlin, then TNT World Champion [in a losing effort].

Yeah, it was great, Jordan was their champion and obviously Jordan is a tremendous wrestler. Say what you want about him, whatever, but Jordan is a tremendous wrestler. He represented that title, had some sick matches with some sick wrestlers, and again, there is that Irish connection in Liverpool as well, so it was just a great experience, man.

The thing that often gets overlooked is these companies that do embrace death match wrestling, the thing that gets lost is people just dismiss them as only being a death match place… and it couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s just a place that has variety and you can get anything you’re looking for there.

The main focus for TNT this year has been your feud with Mark Haskins over the TNT World Championship. He defeated you and El Phantasmo to win the vacant title in February, then last month he beat you one-on-one.

Yeah, I’ve been chasing this championship for what seems to be a very long time. And it seems anytime I’ve been really knocking at the door, it seems to be that something just doesn’t go right for me. Mark Haskins has been the person who has made sure things haven’t gone right for me.

Haskins is only 31, but he’s almost a veteran of the British wrestling scene, after some 12 years in the business.

Oh he’s definitely a veteran. And he’s been relevant that whole time. There’s a reason why he was one of the first British guys in the modern indy era to really break out in America and worldwide. He often was a guy who got some of the first opportunities at these big international showcases, alongside Kris Travis. Guys like Mark Haskins and Kris Travis are that class that brought BritWres back to prominence. So there is no discounting Haskins’ ability, his influence you could say, he’s absolutely fantastic. He’s just a bit of a d***.

You’re equally well travelled – you’ve made Germany [primarily with wXw] and the UK a second home for yourself.

Well now it’s my actual home, I live in the UK now, just outside of London.

You’ve been part of the rise and renaissance of British wrestling, this ‘boom’ period, and have made a big impact for Revolution Pro Wrestling, PROGRESS Wrestling and OTT Wrestling. However, there is a lot of talk now that British wrestling is in decline, and that the ‘boom’ is over. What’s your take on that?

To say the boom is over, I think is accurate. I don’t think it’s controversial to say the boom is over. Us in the locker room, we recognise the boom is over. But that comes from… there’s a lot of different reasons you could say that. There is this weird juxtaposition about it right, because one of the major things, and it’s impossible to deny it, is WWE coming in and buying up talent and promotions. It’s definitely a part of it, it’s not the sole contributing factor, but it’s a part of it.

It’s like Walmart or Amazon moving into your local town, it takes jobs, ‘Mom-and-Pop’ shops close down. It is what happens. But again, the juxtaposition is that there’s been some talent that have got contracts with WWE, who weren’t able to live on wrestling before, who are now getting a real living wage, which is great. But on the same note, there’s also people who are getting that living wage but they’re not able to wrestle anywhere else or really gain experience or increase their own value or do anything like that. There are trade-offs.

On the other hand, there is this responsibility that comes from promoters, because WWE was – ha – gracious enough to allow some of their contracted guys, a lot of their contracted guys from NXT UK, to wrestle for indie companies. And that was relatively unprecedented and that was great. But on that same note, these guys who were either already top draw talent, or on their way to being that, were then used as the top draw talent, and now they’re getting plucked from underneath them [the companies].

There needs to be constantly in independent wrestling, because it’s predicated on the idea of building new stars, building new talent, so what we need to do now, as soon as possible – already – is [focus on] the idea of building new talent, and using these guys, these wrestlers, because there’s nothing wrong with the wrestlers, the guys who signed to WWE, it’s not their fault, it’s not the workers’ fault, it’s the corporation that has all the egregious policies.

But, the promoters now need to embrace new talent and they need to use these guys who are extremely talent, who have been fortunate to get signed by the major wrestling organisation in the world, to use their ability, their knowledge, their advice and everything, to use that to enhance the next set of people.

So I think the idea of saying ‘the boom is dead’, or ‘the boom is over’, is fair. We’re now at a process of levelling out, I think. I don’t think it’s going to drop off entirely, but it’s just, you know, it just might not be as f***ing big as it what. But at the end of the day, the British independent scene is still the most prominent independent scene in the world.

The British scene along with wXw and OTT, that European wrestling scene, is where it’s at in independent wrestling. You’ve seen it in America, American independent wrestling, that boom is over as well, because a lot of the talent got bought up and they can’t be used. So it’s a different dynamic. So I think it’s fair to say British wrestling isn’t dead, but the boom is over.

From a fans point of view, you are going to watch British shows which are featuring NXT UK talents, and there is the suspicion of ‘well I know who’s not winning this match, it’s the person who’s not signed to WWE’.

Well yeah sometimes, yeah that’s the case sometimes. There are times when guys are working for WWE and they’re not allowed to lose, that’s a thing that happens from time-to-time. Or they’re working for WWE so they can’t work against a guy from this company, or they’re working for New Japan, so they can’t work against a guy from this company. I don’t know where all of those restrictions come from, everyone wants to say it’s the big bad WWE, which would be understandable, because based on history that makes sense, but it might also come from these other places too, you can’t discount wrestling politics from any company. Ha.

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Within that new environment, you’ve still had an unbelievable year with so many memorable moments over here and internationally. You mentioned OTT [based in Dublin, Ireland]. The promo produced by Shaun Ryan [of the Crooked Gentleman production team] ahead of your match with Jordan Devlin at OTT Homecoming in February had the whole wrestling world talking. A lot of people said it was one of the best wrestling ‘hype’ videos they had ever seen.

Well, I mean Shaun Ryan is unbelievable. His talent is unreal. I’ve been really fortunate to work with Shaun, I’ve been really fortunate to work with [British photographer and videographer] James Musselwhite, especially with our project, our pro wrestling unionisation project [We The Independent, in conjunction with Equity, seeks to unionise wrestling talent to improve working conditions].

I’ve been really fortunate to work with a lot of really good videographers. And before that, when I was working in the States, I was working with Giancarlo Dittamo all the time, and a guy in Chicago, Rob Malinowski, who is also amazing. Independent wrestling is staying alive by being ahead of the curve and that’s what OTT has been.

OTT is prominent… I think Shaun Ryan is a huge reason for OTT being the best independent wrestling company in the world. And I say that, I’ve thought about it, OTT is the best independent wrestling company in the world. That’s just the God’s honest truth. And Shaun Ryan is a huge part of that. So I’ve just been very fortunate and that video he made for my match with Jordan in February was absolutely unbelievable.

I agree, it was something really special. You mentioned James Musselwhite, I know you’ve worked extensively with him, on great promo videos. In many of them, you speak so directly to the audience, I wouldn’t say it’s unnerving, but it’s certainly very intense. With close-up shots of just you talking, it’s addressing the viewer in a way that means you really connect.

Well, I think it’s really funny, because, we can’t take credit and we can’t say we invented the idea of the black backdrop and me just being there, face on. Obviously we didn’t make that content up. But I just think we kind of together, James and I, we popularised it, with the Sinclair Broadcasting/Ring of Honor promo. It did kind of popularise it, you could see a lot more people doing that style of promo.

So now it’s like, the question is, as James and I keep working together moving forward, do we stick to the formula that we kind of popularised in our eyes – and someone is more than welcome to correct me if I’m wrong there and I’ll take that on the chin – or do we change it up and go different and create a new trend. We’re still kind of figuring it out, because hell, that promo came out in April, it’s only been like five months.

All of a sudden you saw a bunch of different ones, you saw Cody Rhodes do one to set up his match with his brother Dustin [at AEW Double or Nothing in May] which was just unbelievable storytelling. I mean, Cody Rhodes is incredible, and I’m so happy that he’s proving, that he’s really, really throwing it in everybody’s face who thought he wasn’t a top guy… but yeah, the promos have been really cool. I’ve been really fortunate to work with such talented people, especially James and Shaun.

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You referenced the Sinclair Broadcasting/Ring of Honor promo. [In the promo, Starr criticised Ring of Honor’s owners, American telecommunications conglomerate Sinclair Broadcasting, for its conservative slant on news reporting in the U.S.] There was a lot of backlash to that, and you pulled the clip, but it got a lot of people talking about you. Is it something that you regret, or in hindsight was it the right move?

[Laughs] Hell yeah it was the right move man. Regret? I didn’t even come close to regretting that. I didn’t feel a drop of regret, if you measure it in liquid. [Laughs] Not a single drop of regret. That was exactly, I spoke to a few of my friends in wrestling, particularly one who is also very politically engaged, and I just said like ‘hey, I’m thinking about doing this’, and the moment they announced it, I thought about doing it, I thought ‘I’m going to do something about this’.

Actually it was in Liverpool, the day after a TNT show, when it got announced that it was going to be for the Ring of Honor World Championship, the match in Israel with Jay Lethal. I looked at my friend who is a good friend of mine, who is also Jewish, and I said ‘I’m going to say some s*** about this’. And he was like, ‘what are you going to say?’ And I was like, well, ‘I think I’m going to call out Sinclair Broadcasting and I think I’m going to call out the Israeli government’. [Laughs]. And he was like ‘yeah, f***ing do it man, that’s great’.

And again, I talked to the friend of mine who is also very politically engaged and kind of asked him about wrestling politics-wise how it would play out, and he was like ‘just f***ing do it, who cares? Do you want to work for Ring of Honor?’ and I said ‘no’ and he said ‘well do it!’ So I was like, ‘okay’ and we did. And it got a lot of attention.

The only backlash we got was from Sinclair Broadcasting and I don’t give a f*** about Sinclair Broadcasting, so far as what their opinion is. Sorry for cursing by the way, but if you really are upset about being called an extremist right wing corporate propaganda machine, then don’t be an extremist right wing corporate propaganda machine. Maybe don’t advocate for tear gassing migrants, maybe don’t compare multiculturalism to cancer.

I think Sinclair Broadcasting has plenty of issues on their own that they need to address before being mad that a lowly indie wrestler says that they’re pieces of s***. And the Israeli government obviously, just give people rights. Just because they’re brown and not Jewish, it doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the same civil human rights.

They’re not the sort of topics you normally address in a wrestling interview, but I think you’re right to use your platform to bring attention to the things that matter to you.

That was the thing man, I was talking to my politically-engaged friend in wrestling, and I just said ‘I kind of think I have to do it anyway’. Because I do speak about the things I speak about, and if I didn’t say anything, and left that sitting there, that would have been s****y. And on top of that, the promo doesn’t take away at any point from me wanting to win the match and wanting to win the championship.

I still kept kayfabe, and kept the professionalism in that regard. I still did my job selling the match. So I think everything was accomplished, in all honesty. I think it would have been hypocritical of me not to speak out about it, because I’m obviously very vocal about a lot of things.

Absolutely! You have also been very vocal and clear about your views on WWE, both in a promo for wXw in Germany over WrestleMania weekend in April, and in your actions during a match with [NXT UK Champion] Walter [at OTT WrestleRama 3] in June, when you stomped on the NXT UK title. Some people would say these are risks that you are taking – that you are risking burning bridges. Do you see it like that, do you think like that?

Yes. [Laughs] Yes. I am, at this point, based on things that have been told to me directly, by people that speak directly to head WWE officials, or head Ring of Honor officials, I am not able to work for those two companies. So those are two major money making opportunities that are gone. But it’s a calculated risk.

You have to think, number one, like I told you my friend said, ‘do you want to work there?’ And at one point I did want to work for Ring of Honor, and at one point I did want to work for WWE, absolutely. I used to send emails to WWE like you’re supposed to, like you’re told you’re supposed to do, I had a tryout for them in 2014, and I kept in contact and had a good contact relationship, a good email relationship with Canyon Semen, who is the head or vice president of talent relations whatever, the guy who can hire you.

We had good communication and I’ve seen him in person a couple of times, like at WrestleMania weekend, and he’s always friendly and always nice. Every person I’ve ever dealt with from WWE is personally, face-to-face, friendly. There’s no discounting that. But, then when you look at their business politics, it’s egregious.

I just became, as my life has gone on and as this time has gone on, I’ve just kind of dealt more into the politics of business, and understanding that the idea of capitalism is pretty cancerous, for the most part. I don’t think that our society is going to get rid of capitalism full fledged  anytime soon, but I think it needs to be massively, massively regulated, and controlled for the protection of labourers and the protection of consumers.

Now, protection of labourers is the biggest thing with WWE, because they decided, actively decided, to not provide sustainable long term benefits to the workers that are generating profit, so that Vince McMahon can become a billionaire. And there are multiple, multiple people who are making multiple, multiple millions, tens of millions of dollars, working for WWE. It is just unfathomable, unfathomable that they can sleep at night, when they know the reason they are making that kind of money is because of people who are breaking their bodies for them, and they don’t have the balls, or the gumption, to give them just simply healthcare*.

There have been multiple people recently that work for WWE, that work for Ring of Honor, who I have spoken to about this topic, or who work for NXT, ahem, and they’ve said, they’ve told me that they want to unionise, but they can’t even talk about it, because if they talk about it on the road, they’re afraid that like the ring, because it’s mic’d up, that people are listening to their conversations at shows. And they’re afraid of even talking about it because they’re afraid of losing their jobs.

This is a reminder that needs to be said, in America, and I think this exists in the UK as well and probably multiple other countries in Europe as well especially, you are not allowed to fire an employee for discussing or wanting to unionise. You are not allowed to. It is illegal, not unlawful, it is illegal. And those people don’t have a business without your labour.

That is the thing, we don’t understand the power that we really have. I do know, obviously there are other factors, and it’s easy for me to say this because I don’t have kids and I’m not married, and obviously there are plenty of people that work for WWE, that work for Ring of Honor that have a family to feed, they definitely do. But they will give in to you, if all of us stay together, in solidarity, and support every single wrestler if they decide not to work.

I will cancel… I will openly say if there is a major corporate wrestling labour protest or strike, I will cancel my bookings and fly myself there and be there, I will do that. And I will stop myself from working as long as they’re not working. I will say that right now, out loud, I’m willing to put my money where my mouth is. We have that kind of power and I don’t think we realise what kind of power we have.

I don’t think fans realise what kind of power they have to implement change either, because they want to talk about their free market principles, well guess what? Fans, you control the free market in this regard. You can make them make a decision if you don’t give them your money. It’s hard, a lot of fans want to stay out of this conversation, and I understand that, but sometimes it’s necessary to get in the weeds, when you see massive injustice being implemented on labourers who are working for your entertainment.

Do you think a major factor in people accepting the way things are and not pushing for change has been that for so many years, WWE was – aside perhaps from New Japan Pro Wrestling – the only end goal for a lot of wrestlers? It was the place where everybody wanted to be and to work, and if there isn’t a major league alternative, then people are going to be more accepting and stomach things they don’t like, because that’s the only game in town, and the only way they can fulfill their ambitions?

Yep. That’s the thing, it’s not just that people are accepting things, it’s because they kind of have to. WWE wasn’t the only aspiration, it was the only attainable thing. And it wasn’t even that attainable, for mad long. And New Japan Pro Wrestling is only recently attainable seemingly to more people. New Japan has opened itself up to the world, as opposed to what it used to do.

Obviously they are still very Japanese heavy, but they have brought in a lot more international talent, a lot more on a more consistent basis than they used to do. There used to be a couple they would sprinkle here and there, but now their whole roster is filled with a bunch of people from all over the world. And AEW, and you know much as Sinclair Broadcasting sucks, Ring of Honor does offer legitimate salaried contracts to some of these guys. So that’s awesome, in that small bit right there.

So that is a thing that does give us more power, because WWE always has had the goal of monopolising the industry, always. Not ifs or buts about it. Ever since Vince McMahon Jnr took over, the goal has been to have the only game in town, to monopolise the business. They have already done one thing, which is very hard to do, which is they have become the Coca Cola of wrestling. They have already done something where if you say ‘I’m a pro wrestler’, the first response that a person on the street gives you, is ‘oh, like WWE?’ If I go to a restaurant and I say ‘hey, can I have a coke?’, they know what it is, even if they’re going to give you a Pepsi.

It’s universal.

Yeah, they’ve already accomplished that. And now, as they have achieved this, they have slowly but surely taken away little benefits that they would give to their workers. And it has just got worse and worse and worse. They have increased dates and taken away revenue streams such as pay-per-view massively, and not really given proper royalties to guys that way. And as their streaming services and the popularity of the internet has increased, they haven’t given that revenue stream back to their labourers at all, really.

They are way behind when it comes to merchandise profits splits, compared to the rest of the sports and entertainment world. They are way behind as far as literal cash flow for salaries go, in comparison to the rest of the sports and entertainment world, and they are way behind regarding benefits and protections for their workers, compared to the rest of the sports and entertainment world. They are extremely behind. And this is where I’ve had conversations with people that run major wrestling organisations, I’ve had discussions with them about the way to compete with WWE.

In my opinion, it costs a lot, but you’re not going to beat WWE, if that’s what you wish to do, you’re not going to beat them by being the number one game in town. You’re not going to put them out of business. And I don’t want to see them go out of business, because I want people to have jobs, I just want to see those jobs protected properly…

But if you’re going to try and compete with them, it’s going to cost money. And the way that you spend that money isn’t even through necessarily through advertising and stuff like that, the money you spend will get advertised if you spend it on labour protection. If you spend it on things that will force WWE to spend that money, then you would be instituting cultural change.

If just for example AEW allowed their wrestlers to unionise, or fully fledged gave all of their contracted wrestlers healthcare…. I know for a fact AEW has given, I think I was told 20 wrestlers healthcare, but insurers basically don’t want to insure pro wrestlers, so they are the people that are also working in the office, doing the grind of that work as well as wrestling, so they have been able to do that through other ways, which is great, and smart.

But that, it puts the pressure immediately on WWE, which has the money to spend, they have it to do that. You can’t take away those worker protections if everybody else provides them. You have to compete for the talent. Make them work for us, that’s the point. If we have a paradigm shift and we understand that we are the ones they desire, it’s not us that desires to go there, they need us, we have a platform now with social media, we can open this up to the world, and we can have this power. That is something I need to hammer home, because we don’t realise how much power we have. Be vocal!

You spoke earlier of your admiration for Cody Rhodes and again, on this topic, AEW has said it intends to improve standards of healthcare for its workers, and discussed its wrestlers becoming employees and the prospect of unionisation. It seems AEW is a company that could be a logical destination for you one day. Is that something you would like to come to fruition? Would you like to be on that side of the ‘Wednesday Night War’ as it’s being billed?

[Laughs] Well, that’s fine, if somebody offers me a contract, I’m not going to blankly say no, I’m going to check it out, I’m going to take it to a lawyer, I’m going to look at it, see how I feel about it, and then we can have a discussion. If there are non-starters in there, then it’s a non-starter. If it’s something we can work on and maybe we can come to an agreement that’s mutually beneficial in our eyes, cool.

Tony Khan [AEW president] seems to be a good dude, I’ve hung out with him multiple times and had multiple conversations with him, I like Cody, I’ve had a good relationship with the [Young] Bucks, and a bunch of people on the roster I’m good friends with. Who knows? I can’t say yes or no, but if it happens, I’ll go through the process that I think wrestlers should go through and I’ll do everything I can.

Maybe that results in me not signing somewhere, but I think it’s ridiculous if you don’t have the right to check out what’s in your contract or negotiate. That would be a non-starter.

Of course, you have to prize your own worth and your standard of living and consider whether it’s the best thing for you to be a part of something.

Yeah. If that was the thing, cool, if that’s not a thing, that’s cool too. There’s obviously a lot of things I’ve said openly, one of the things when there were loose talks with WWE about me possibly coming in to do something for them, one of my big things is I don’t want to have to move back to America, where I wouldn’t get healthcare. That’s a big thing for me.

So, there will be a lot of discussions and healthcare would absolutely be one of the top ones. One of the things that I know is very positive for AEW is they’re very open to conversations about this stuff. I’ve had conversations with Tony about labour protection and he’s very receptive, there at least is a conversation to be had, as opposed to it being closed.

I’m glad to hear you’re a man who values our great NHS.

Of course I do! [Laughs] We need to protect that as much as possible, especially now.

TNT Extreme Wrestling Cold Day in Hell 2019 takes place at Hangar 34 in Greenland Street, Liverpool on Thursday, October 3.

Doors open at 6pm for VIP ticket holders and at 7pm for general admission.

Tickets are available now from Ringside World

More information can be found at the TNT Facebook page

* WWE has previously refuted the suggestion that it neglects the welfare of its workers, most notably earlier this year, when HBO’s Last Week Tonight host John Oliver levelled criticism at its superstars having the status of independent contractors – as opposed to full time employees – and working under exclusive, long term contracts, but reportedly not having benefits such as annual paid leave, pensions or long term health insurance.

In response to comments made by Oliver in April, WWE stated: “The health and wellness of our performers is the single most important aspect of our business, and we have a comprehensive, longstanding Talent Wellness program.”